CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI
PART 24

(Continued from the previous issue)

Creation by Divine Will

A Visitor: These miracles that Swami does by moving His hand and out come very costly things from nowhere. Is there some explanation? SAI: Some objects Swami creates in just the same way that He created the material universe. Other objects, such as watches, are brought from existing supplies. There are no invisible beings helping Swami to bring things. His sankalpa, His divine will brings the object in a moment. Swami is everywhere. His creations belong to the natural unlimited power of God and are in no sense the product of yogic powers as with yogis or of magic as with magicians. The creative power is in no way contrived or developed, but is natural only. H (Hislop): Is it true that wild animals will not harm a saintly person? SAI: There was once a guru who told his disciple that God was in everything. The disciple believed the statement. That very day there was a royal parade. The king was the centre of attraction riding on an enormous elephant. Ignoring the rules of safety for such parades the disciple planted himself firmly in the path of the royal elephant, and he paid no attention to the cries of warning that he would be trampled to death. Upon reaching him, the elephant lifted him and put him safely to one side. The disciple went to the guru and complained that although God was in both the elephant and himself, he had been unable to remove the elephant from his path. That on the contrary, the elephant had removed him. The guru explained that it was merely a matter of the elephant having greater physical strength. He told the disciple that had he not been looking at God in the elephant the beast would have killed him just as a matter of ordinary work.

However, since the disciple was looking at God in the elephant, God had safely lifted him out of harm’s way. No animal, not even a cobra, will harm the person who sees God as the essential reality of the animal or the snake. The same is usually true as regards dangerous men, but there are some exceptions here because of karmic implications.

Saints and Scholars

H: I bought this book The Saints of India.

SAI: (Opening the book and looking at the names) They are not saints. They were scholars and heads of religious sects. (Sai read through the lists making a comment in Telugu about each name. Translator was silent.)

H: Swami, it would be good to know the names of some real saints so that I could read about them.

SAI: What is meant by ‘saint’? H: I guess I mean a messenger from God. From the list of ten names, the world thinks of Sankara, Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi as being such. SAI: Ramakrishna started as a devotee of God. There was Mother Kali and himself. They were separate. A duality existed. At one point he engaged in a certain action, and Mother Kali never appeared to him again. Towards the end he merged in God and was God-realized. H: Sankara and Ramana Maharshi were similar cases? SAI: Yes. H: Perhaps Buddha was a messenger of God?

SAI: Buddha never mentioned God. The story is known that he was a prince with wife and child, that when he saw misery and death he determined to find their cause. For years he engaged in severe austerities. He made three announcements: All is suffering. All is transient. All is void.

H: Then Buddha did not realize God but realised nirvana?

The Greatness of Madhura Bhakthi

SAI: Yes. (On a previous occasion Sai had said that one found that for which he sought, and the Buddha had searched for the cause of sorrow).There is only one yoga, and that is bhakthi yoga. All the others, Kriya yoga, hatha yoga, the so-called Sai yoga, pranayama, all the methods and techniques known as yogas belong to the body. They are like drill exercises. Right! Left! Up! Down! Where is the result? They are worthless and a waste of time; Bhakthi yoga is the direct path to God. It is the easy way. All others are useless. There are six types of Bhakthi. Madhura means sweet; this is the highest type.

H: What makes madhura the highest?

SAI: In this the devotee sees everything as God. When Jayadeva would lift his clothes to put on, he would see Krishna in the garments and would not treat them as clothes. He would go about the streets unclothed and people would put a garment around him. He would talk with Krishna, sing to Krishna, dance with Krishna, merge with Krishna, and fall senseless. He was the guru of Chaitanya.

H: Swami, the description sounds somewhat like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.

SAI: Jayadeva, Chaitanya, and Ramakrishna are in this madhura stream of bhakthi. Jayadeva saw himself as the bride of Krishna, and because of this his songs are taken by the public with a worldly meaning as being lustful. Whereas, the true meanings, the meanings they had for Jayadeva are quite different. To himself, the heart was the bride. He was the Atma. Chaitanya’s Madura Bhakthi H: What kind of person was Chaitanya? SAI: Chaitanya also would sing to Krishna and dance in ecstasy with Krishna. Once he visited an admirer. He was lodged in a room next to the prayer hall. Whenever food was offered to the 5-metal idol of Krishna, Chaitanya was observed to be eating that same food in his room. The host decided to make a test. He locked Chaitanya in his room and there was some opening through which he could see Chaitanya. Food was offered to the Krishna idol, and Chaitanya was seen to be eating the food. The host entered the room and slapped Chaitanya on both cheeks. Upon this, the metal idol of Krishna disappeared. This caused great worry, and prayers were made to Krishna. Krishna appeared to the devotees and said, ‘You offered food to me and then slapped me when I ate. So I went away’.

H: His devotion had...

SAI: Chaitanya had Sachananda as a guru at one time. The guru wanted to test the devotion of Chaitanya. He placed a cube of sugar on Chaitanya’s tongue and said to him to keep it there until he returned from the river. At the river, Sachananda bathed, washed clothes, did his singing and was away some two hours. On returning, he found Chaitanya with his mouth still open and the cube of sugar vibrating somewhat, but intact on the tongue without any melting. Realising Chaitanya’s greatness, and that his control of the senses was so complete, he prostrated and declared that Chaitanya was his guru.

Devotion in Modern Times

H: Swami, are there such complete devotees living today, such as Jayadeva and Chaitanya?

SAI: Oh yes, there are. But mostly they contain the devotion within themselves. Sometime it shows and the world judges the person to be of unsound mind. Swami has encountered such devotees, but He does not grant interviews. But the people live filled with joy. There was one such, a rani, a queen, who was encountered a few years ago. It was not appropriate to the situation to grant interview.

H: Is it possible for a Western person to be such a great bhaktha?

SAI: Oh yes, quite possible.

H: But Swami, for an office-holder who has Swami’s work to do in the world, which is the best bhakthi?

SAI: The same.

H: But how could one do work if he were like that?

SAI: It is quite possible to do work and at the same time be the highest bhaktha. It is the feeling that is important, for the work. Even in the case of Jayadeva and Chaitanya, their influence was widespread.

H: Swami, it seems to be the case that from the time of Krishna to Sathya Sai there has been no opportunity...

SAI: (interrupting)Time? I am Krishna! Where is time? H: Swami, I mean between the time of the Krishna body and the Sathya Sai body there has been no opportunity to have God Himself as one’s guru. SAI: Until the Shirdi body. H: Then, Swami, this has to be the best time for persons to be born? SAI: Yes the very best time - even better than during the lifetime of the Krishna body. Curing Cancer SAI: Cancer. It develops often from a small pustule. There is inflammation, some gas, and from this cancer develops.

H: Swami can cure even terminal cases of cancer?

SAI:Oh yes, a certain person whom you know is a good example of that. She was filled with cancer. The doctors gave up, removed tubes, sewed up incisions, and left her only a few days to live. Now she is strong and healthy and works all day.

H: Swami does that only when the karma is appropriate?

SAI: If Swami is pleased with the person, He heals that person at once. Karma can have no effect on that.

H: This is extremely important information. Because when people fail to get cured by Swami, they put it down to the fact that their karma is not ready.

SAI: If the person has a pure heart, and is living Swami’s teachings, Swami’s grace is automatic. No karma can prevent that.

Sai Teaches on Healing

H: There is a situation in California where a healer wishes to join a Sri Sathya Sai Centre and use his healing powers for the benefit of Baba’s devotees. The leader of that particular Center has had relief from illness by means of the power flowing from the hands of the healer, and has the idea that the healer has been sent by Baba and that Baba is doing the healing through the person of the healer. I was requested to ask Swami for His viewpoint.

SAI: The power flowing from the healer is not Swami’s power, it is evil power. The healer is himself in need of healing. Divine power is in every place; it arises from within. Both these bodies (pointing to Hislop and the driver of the car) are strong and healthy (implying that the health was due to divine power without the agency of an outside healer.

H: The healer also has a question. He asks if what he is doing is all right. SAI: No. It is not all right. It is not divine power flowing through the person of the healer. H: How then should one be healed. SAI: By ordinary medical means and by prayer. H: But Swami, there are thousands of cases around the world of sick people being healed by healers. What about them? SAI: Any benefit is only a temporary feeling of relief and is not real. If a healing occurs, it is because the person has had a feeling or thought of God. H: Then power from God does not flow into a person? SAI: Where is God? He is within you. From within He heals.

Test and Punishment

A Visitor: Baba, since time is simply Your will and has no reality outside of that, and duration of time also being Your will, why not shorten time a bit? People have so much suffering, why do they have to suffer for so long a time?

SAI: They are being tested, but it should not be called so. It is grace. Those who suffer have My grace. Only through suffering will they be persuaded to turn inward and make the inquiry. And without turning inward and making inquiry, they can never escape misery.

H: People have said they are being punished by Swami. Is this a fact?

SAI: Of course. In punishing a person for misdemeanour, Swami punishes in order to correct the defaulter. But, though harsh in appearance and voice, Baba is all love inside. Sometimes Swami corrects a person in private, at other times in public. It depends on the individual. If the correction is in public, then all who hear may learn what pleases Swami and what displeases Him. Butter may be cut with a finger, but a rock needs an iron hammer. It all depends on the material, the person. Swami is very strict in His rules and principles. An Avatar does not compromise. To the devotee, strictness is ultimately the best kindness. Depending on the situation, Swami can be soft, kind, or He can be as hard as a diamond. He does not give only one chance, He forgives a thousand times. But if persons still pay no attention, He clips them.

H: Yes, Swami. People, devotees near Swami have to do their best to be perfect in their behaviour.

SAI: People, those outwardly ‘distant’ from Swami, He tells, but not so severely as those ‘near’. People judge Swami by His ‘near’ devotees and so these individuals must follow very strict standards of behaviour. ‘Punishment’ also depends on the nature and magnitude of the error.

God Forgives With Sincere Repentance

H: Can it be correct that God forgives sin?

SAI: It might be thought that grace is difficult to secure. Such is not the case. Grace is the easiest thing to secure if the method is known and used. In the Gita, the method is given. As in driving a car, so confusing at first, but with practice so easy to do all the necessary tasks all at the same time and also carry on a conversation without strain. There is nothing that cannot be accomplished with practice. Even ants in a single file crossing a stone will leave a mark.

The Name it is that will guard you and guide you throughout life. It is such a small thing! But to cross the ocean, an immense steamship is not needed. Even a small raft will do. The Name of God is the smallest of the small, and the largest of the large. The mouth is the principle gateway of the body, and the tongue must always carry the Name. Like a small lantern, the Name must go when and where you go, and then you can travel easily through the whole forest of life.

(To be continued)

– Heart2Heart Team