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Posted on : Dec 25, 2012
"Baba makes me live the life of a priest IN full awareness"
- A Conversation with Father Charles Ogada
Religion in the true sense is a process of purification. The state, this process prepares us for, is true Spirituality. And it is not a matter of surprise that those who follow religion scrupulously, one day come face to face with Reality, in the very path of religion. And that experience only enriches with wisdom, what was till then mere knowledge and learning. It closes the outer eye, and opens the inner vision.
Rev. Father Charles Ogada is one such sincere practitioner of religion. Fr. Charles, a Catholic Priest, who was ordained in 1999, was born in Uturu, Nigeria. He first came to Bhagawan Baba in 2006, to spark off a journey of deeper insights and self-discovery. In this short conversation with Prof. G. Venkataraman, he shares some of his thoughts, which are indeed inspiring. We bring you this conversation this Christmas with the hope that we all will one day connect with that Christ within, as Baba always wants us to.
Prof G.Venkataraman (GV): Sai Ram and welcome to the studios of Radio Sai. I suppose your parishioners call you Father Charles - but here in the Sai family you are Brother Charles. The father becomes the brother (laughs)! How do you like the change?
Father Charles Ogada (FC): (Laughs) Oh, it’s good. We are all one.
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| Father Charles speaks in the divine Presence during Christmas 2006 |
GV: Yes, we are all the children of God and that makes us brothers. Ok, when were you here last?
FC: Last year (2006) in September for just over one month; and it was my first visit.
GV: I think I saw you going for many interviews. What was your impression of Swami in those interviews?
FC: It was amazing - He is beyond expression ...
GV: How did you happen to hear about Him?
FC: Actually it was about five years ago, through another priest called Reverend Father Araso. He is a lecturer in the Seminary and in one of his lectures during my training, he mentioned Baba and gave me a book to read, “Sai Baba, the Man of Miracles”. Actually, he is a devotee of Baba and of Shirdi Baba.
GV: And how did the book strike you?
FC: Well, what struck me was not really the miracles, but the miracles were really signals to a higher Reality.
GV: What is that higher Reality, according to you?
FC: The higher Reality is the One that pervades all things, God Himself, the Unseen that is behind the seen. The miracles are the things in the Hand, but there is a Hand holding them. So you know, it really pushed me into an inner enquiry about that Reality. Before, it had been an intellectual search, but now it became a passion – there was a surge of inner enquiry that really drew me to these realities.
GV: Before I go into more depth regarding that issue, I want to ask you a practical question. This gentleman who introduced you to Swami via that Howard Murphet book - you said he was a devotee of Shirdi Sai Baba.
FC: Yes. In fact he has a very big statue of Shirdi Baba …
GV: And does that not get him into problems? (Laughs)
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FC: (Laughs) Actually he has had problems, but it doesn’t really disturb him. He told me once, “Look Charles, I have won my freedom”. He is beyond Religion. He says, “I am not just a Catholic, I am an African traditional religionist, I am all in all. So you cannot cage me in one box”.
GV: Interesting! Now, can you give us an example of the correspondence between Baba’s teachings and those found in the Bible.
FC: I’ll give you examples right from the Bible itself, and how Baba´s teaching integrates and brings out the essence of the Bible. In the Gospel of Mark a young scribe came to Jesus and asked Him “What is the greatest commandment?” and Jesus quoted the Old Testament and said, “Listen O Israel, the Lord your God is One, there is no other. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. There is no other commandment greater than this”.
And when I studied Baba´s teaching I discovered that a total harmony. For example, the first call is, “Listen O Israel” - the call to the sound of silence: Om. Then “the Lord is One” - which means there is no other Reality. All other things are illusion. They are non-existent. And to love this One, with all your heart, that is bhakti yoga; with all your mind, that is jnana yoga; and with all your strength, that is karma yoga (laughs)! And to love your neighbour as yourself – his Self is the same Atma that is in you; to realise that same Atma in everyone - that is all one needs to know!
And Baba says and I quote, “I am telling you once and for all, in only one sentence, the quintessential teaching of all the Scriptures: you should firmly feel your identity with one and the same Atma or Self, that is present in all beings”.
He says, 'all scriptures' not just one. And this is the same summary that Jesus Christ gave to that young man. So it’s all one, and when you start to read the Bible in the light of Swami’s Teachings, then a lot of meanings come out, a lot of things that you never expected.
GV: Ok, I am very happy to hear that and the unity that you have found in the different religious expressions. But you are a priest and you look after a flock. You must have many parishioners with all kinds of problems. Everywhere in the world there are problems. The world is all One, and there is only God. Why, according to you, are there so many problems, what is going wrong where?
FC: It is ignorance - the superimposition of the unreal upon the Real. We should understand that we are One – because love emanates from that understanding.
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GV: What prevents us from understanding that? We are not stupid, I mean, man is able to fly to the Moon – is he that stupid? There is something that is very powerful preventing man from understanding. According to you, what is that?
FC: According to me it is the lack of enquiry – especially spiritual enquiry. We are enquiring about the objective world, but not the spiritual world.
GV: Do you feel that ego might have blinded us with a sense of self-importance, “I know everything, there is no need to know more”? Is it the triumph of matter over spirit?
FC: Yes, and that ego also arises out of a lack of discrimination.
GV: That is true. Now changing the subject a little bit, I want to ask you one question. People hail Baba as God and many in India have no problem accepting that. We regard Him as an Incarnation – a concept which is accepted in our scriptures. But, given the fact that you come from a very different background, are you able to accept our observation that Baba is God?
FC: Actually, I have never really had any doubts about the Divinity of Baba. Maybe because it might not be just this present incarnation, that I come across Baba.
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GV: All right, I accept that you don’t have any doubt. But supposing somebody asks you back home, “You say He is God, how do you know He is God?” How do you answer that question?
FC: You can’t answer that question. You just have a feeling in your heart …
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GV: I agree with you, you have a feeling in your heart. But tell me, what does your heart say? If it is not a personal question!
FC: Yes, in my heart it is love. We are becoming personal here, but – He is all my life!
GV: The word 'love' is used by everybody. How do you understand love, in the context of Divinity, in the context of the teachings of Christ and the Bible, and in the context of your own life?
FC: Love is unity. Love arises from the realization of oneness. I cannot love my mother without that sense of mine – oneness. I cannot love my father without that sense of “that is my father”. It is because he is my father that I love him. It is because she is my mother that I love her. If later on someone would tell me “actually that person is not your mother” - you know, the love begins to distance. So, love arises from that sense of oneness. And the greatest oneness is to realise the oneness with God, that’s the greatest love – it is the soul, the spirit, the Atma…
GV: Now, do you see any parallels in the teachings of Swami and what you read in the Bible?
FC: Absolutely. But you know, one thing has to be clarified here. That is to understand how the New Testament came to be written. During the time when Christ was preaching, doing good works, and proclaiming the good news, there was nobody recording it. It was not like with Baba now. All His discourses are automatically recorded, as He is saying them.
But this did not happen during the time of Jesus, so it took about 60-70 years after His death before the New Testament was written. And actually this was when His close devotees were dying. So it is from their stories that we have the Gospels according to Mark, Luke, John and Matthew. And you can also see some inherent contradictions between them. So when you now put these factors together with Baba´s Teachings, you will be able to see the truth behind the contradictions.
GV: Now I want to ask you a very difficult question! (Laughs) You know, we all get excited about the teachings of Christ once a year, on Christmas day, while we are exchanging presents. And also about Baba’s teachings. But, are you convinced that these teachings can really be followed and implemented and adopted to solve the problems of the world today?
Take Africa for example. There are problems of illiteracy, disease, civil wars and poverty. Do you feel that these problems can be solved by following the teachings of Baba and of Christ?
FC: Actually we need Baba. Africa needs Baba.
GV: Why Africa, the whole world, I would say!
FC: Yes, but you know, I am from Africa! (Laughs). The problem of Africa is not about poverty or wars – the problem of Africa is spirituality.
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GV: What do you mean by that?
FC: What I mean by that is – when we know God, then all those wars, poverty...
GV: What do you mean by “when you know God”? Take for example the Middle East, where there are two groups of people professing two religions, which swear by God, but cut each others' throats all the time! (Laughs) So what do you mean by God?
FC: What I mean by that is.. 'Who is God?' You are God, I am God. It is the same Atma in you that is in me, the same Spirit in you that is in me. When I realise that Oneness, then there won’t be any room for me to hate or harm you.
GV: How do you make people understand this? They have gone around for millions of years without understanding this.
FC: It takes a long time …
GV: Does that mean we have to wait a long time for the problems to be solved?
FC: We have to start somewhere!
GV: How do you start? That’s what I want to ask you. Supposing we want to begin to solve the problems of Africa, how do you think it should be done?
FC: Actually Baba has given us some practical steps, like EHV (Education in Human Values). Education is the greatest means of transformation, when there is a heart to heart transmission. Getting the young people to understand when they are still small and training them in the path of the truth is very important. And when they are grown up they will be able to spread the truth.
GV: Are you familiar with what Dr. Kanu is doing in Zambia?
FC: I have watched his videos, but I haven’t gone there. It’s a great thing he is doing.
GV: It’s amazing, yes. He was here some months ago. We were talking to him also about these topics.
FC: Another way to ameliorate this situation is through the African’s great love of religion. But the problem there is that, when somebody is hungry, he can eat anything. But when you are able to satiate their hunger with real heavenly food, with truth, then you will be able to solve the problem. The African man is a very religious man, and through that religiosity Baba’s teachings can be imparted.
And also with seva, selfless work. Helping the destitute, the abandoned youths, marginalised lives, the refugees - actually seva accomplishes a lot of things. When you see somebody come selflessly, without any ego, to help out, naturally the tendency is to follow their example.
GV: What you are saying is, if people start helping each other, like in the parable of the Good Samaritan, then the beginning of a change can be seen.
FC: Exactly!
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GV: You are coming from Lagos in Nigeria. Do you have a Sai centre there?
FC: We have three centres there attended by both Africans and people of Indian origin. We also have a Satsang every Sunday with Father Araso. There are also centres in the towns of Forcados, Ibadan and Enugu.
GV: Many years ago I saw some people from a French speaking west African country here. They were obviously Muslims, but they were in modern dress and I was quite amazed to see them here. They didn’t know the language, it’s a very different country and culture, and yet they were drawn by Baba.
So did you have any interesting experiences, as they say? All devotees love to talk about experiences.
FC: Yes, there have been a lot – well, experiences are really bombarding me, you know (laughs)!
GV: Tell us about one, a spectacular experience.
FC: Which one to tell you! (Laughs) Now, one particular experience that has really influenced me in my life is - you know I am a priest and I belong to a religious congregation called the Holy Ghost Congregation. And we take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. And during the first interview that Baba gave me, He asked me “How are your wives?” (Laughs)
I was taken aback. So I told Baba “I don’t have any wives”. I don’t even have one wife, let alone many wives! So He started talking to other people. And after a while, again He asked me the same question. Then I kept quiet, because I knew He was up to something.
Then later on, in subsequent interviews, Baba told me, “Sometimes you want to marry, sometimes you don’t want to marry – you are Mine!”.
You see, my experiences with Baba have made me live the vows that I have taken, more deeply. For example there is a lot of talk about celibacy now in the Catholic Church. The problem is that they are meant to live a life without teaching them how to live that life. Then it is like a suppression. Baba teaches us how to transform the energy, the lower energy into a higher energy, and you begin to live the life in full, without thinking it is a punishment. So He is leading me gradually, step by step in that particular experience and a whole new inner view of life is unfolding.
Take another example: the vow of poverty that we take. What does poverty mean? Poverty, from my own inner experiences with Baba, really means doing work without ego. Poverty means being above blame and praise, being above success and failures, establishing yourself in equanimity of spirit – that is poverty, total renunciation. In Hindu culture there is the sannyasin, the renunciate. What does renunciation mean?
So Baba really makes me live the life of a priest, with the vows I have taken, in full awareness.
GV: Well, it has been very nice talking to you, and it has been very nice spending some time with you, and I thank you very much for sparing some time for us, and for sharing your views, thoughts and experiences with our listeners. I hope you have a fruitful stay for the rest of your time here.
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Be assured that even if you don’t get a physical interview, if you feel close to Him, He will be talking to you. If you talk to Him, He responds - that has been my experience. He may talk to you in silence, or at the physical level. But through the inner voice He will talk very powerfully, clearly and lovingly too. That has been my experience, and I am sure you will experience the same thing.
FC: That’s where Baba is leading me now – to the inner view. It is very, very important …
GV: The inside is much bigger than the outside. The inside is infinite, the outside is finite, and if you go inside, you have a lot more space than you have in the outside! So thank you again, wish you all the best! Sai Ram!
FC: Sai Ram.
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If you wish to know in detail about Father Charles Ogada's journey to Swami, read our Dec 2007 Cover Story - The Divine reality revealed… The Truth of the Father and the Son
You can also read articles by Father Charles Ogada that have featured in our Website:
The Story of Easter – Jesus is Risen!
Resurrection and Reincarnation - Born, Not to be Born Again
The Spiritual Significance of 'The Sermon on the Mount'
- Radio Sai Team
